Inclusive Futures Book Club
Welcome to Inclusive Futures Book Club!
What is the Book Club?
The book club is an initiative of the Inclusive Futures team at Griffith University. We aim to connect with people who love books, films and podcasts which communicate the voice of disability.
The book club aims to promote awareness and foster an inclusive culture, through the sharing of stories and lived experiences of disability.
What happens at the Book Club?
We occasionally hold events for conversations about books, and the lived experience of disability. Where possible we include the featured authors. Our events are held either in-person at GriffithContinue reading
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Interview with Dr Sarah Brooker, author of My Lucky Stroke
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I had the great pleasure of hosting Dr. Sarah Brooker(External link), author of "My Lucky Stroke”(External link) at our recent Inclusive Futures Book Club online event on Tuesday 13 August 2024(External link). Having recently read Sarah’s book, I found her presentation to contain the same honesty, insight and humour that I enjoyed when reading her story. Here is my summary of our event.
Dr Sarah Brooker and Dr Maretta MannA life-saving accident
Sarah shared her story about her life journey pre- and post-stroke. She began by telling us about her fascination as a young child with the brain and her ambition to become a neuroscientist. She was about to begin her Honours degree, when an accident changed the course of her life. While driving with her two sisters in the car, she had a stroke causing her to crash into a pole. That car accident, while giving her multiple serious injuries, probably also saved her life by preventing a sub arachnoid haemorrhage.
Visible and invisible injuries
Sarah explained that whilst she suffered broken bones and other serious injuries from the car accident, the biggest effects on her life, caused by trauma to her brain, were not apparent for days, months and years afterwards. The first of these changes was the discovery that her pituitary gland was missing, and later she learnt that she was deaf in one ear and had lost her sense of smell. These diagnoses took time because Sarah’s brain injury meant that she had no knowledge or recollection of what it meant to hear or to smell from before her accident.
The ”new” Sarah
Sarah’s rehabilitation journey involved learning again how to eat, walk, dress, cook and to socialise with others. In some ways she was like a child learning about “the new Sarah” and the world around her. However, some parts of her memory were functioning very well. Remarkably, Sarah could remember every fact that she had learnt about the human brain and she was still really passionate about neuroscience.
Trying to fit in was the biggest challenge
Once Sarah left the rehabilitation unit, she found it very difficult to fit into the outside world. Her occupational therapist recommended getting a therapy dog, and so Harvey the fluffy Maltese terrier entered her life. He helped her by providing her with another being to care for and in her interactions with other people. So, with Harvey in her life she went back to university and finished her Honours degree in neuropharmacology, and later a PhD. But the ”new Sarah” found that she didn’t fit into the scientific world. She found it difficult to make friends other than with other people with disability.
A friend and a diagnosis
Two important things happened gave Sarah purpose and a feeling of belonging. She met Alan, who became her friend and later her husband. Alan did not make excuses for her and helped her to navigate a social world. Also, she finally got a diagnosis for her brain injury – orbitofrontal syndrome. Sarah told us how powerful it was to have this diagnosis. It helped her to explain and to manage her own behaviour.
The importance of disability disclosure
Sarah tried several career paths but eventually found happiness as a teacher. She recounted a time when she was studying to become a teacher and someone from the university’s Disability Liaison Unit said to her class:
“‘If you need our help, we are here and don't worry, we won't disclose anything.’ And I was so offended. In my mind, a failure to disclose perpetuates ignorance and ignorance only made it harder to survive.”
In Sarah’s view, disclosure was important both for protecting her from harm in her job, as well as helping others to understand that “the silly little foibles that are Sarah” are due to the golf ball-sized hole in her brain.
Sharing experiences of brain injury
In the discussion following Sarah’s presentation, some attendees shared their own experiences of life after brain injury. As always with these events, I sensed a warmth and connection in the virtual room, where people felt safe to be open, and support each other.
'My Lucky Stroke'
My Lucky Stroke is sadly out of print. I was fortunate to find a second-hand copy, but otherwise you can purchase the e-book on Amazon, here: https://www.amazon.com.au/My-Lucky-Stroke-Sarah-Brooker-ebook/dp/B084ZTG7BH(External link)
The book is available as an accessible 16pt large print paperback edition from Better Read Than Dead Bookstore in Newtown, purchase here: https://www.betterread.com.au/book/my-lucky-stroke-16pt-large-print-edition.do(External link)
Watch the Author talk on YouTube (An accessible transcript in large print or other formats is available upon request): https://youtu.be/DTPWXlcW7Ao?si=Lg709dg8-zx_4vbm(External link)
You can also listen to Sarah’s 2018 interview with Richard Fidler on ABC Conversations here: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/conversations/conversations-sarah-brooker-rpt/9926380(External link)
More Information:
inclusivefutures@griffith.edu.au
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Disability Inclusion Author Talk Series Mary Li and Sophie – Navigating Hearing Loss
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On Wednesday, April 3, 2024, the Inclusive Futures Book Club hosted author Mary Li(External link) for an insightful conversation with Dr. Maretta Mann. The discussion delved into Mary’s remarkable dancing career, her marriage to Li Cunxin (External link)AO, and the challenges faced by her daughter, Sophie, who was diagnosed as profoundly deaf at 17 months. They explored career decisions, the absence of role models, and the complexities of education and social interactions. Mary and Sophie’s journey, navigating both the hearing and deaf worlds, provided a powerful narrative of resilience and adaptation.
Mary Li together with Inclusive Futures Book Club and Author Talk host Dr. Maretta MannAn Unlikely Beginning
Mary Li’s memoir traces her journey from Rockhampton, Australia, where she grew up as Mary McKendry—one of eight children. Despite an unconventional start, Mary’s innate musicality drew her to ballet. She recalls, “The minute I walked into the studio at eight years old, and I could hear the music, I was lifted to another world.” Her teacher recognised her potential, leading to an invitation to the Royal Ballet School in London at age 16.
Mary’s Dancing Career
Mary joined the London Festival Ballet (now the English National Ballet) in 1977. As she ascended the ranks, she danced principal roles in classical ballets, collaborated with renowned choreographers, and performed on international stages. One of many highlights was visiting China in the early 1980s—a ground-breaking experience.
Mary Li and her dance partner and husband Li Cunxin OAM dance Swan LakeA Shocking Diagnosis
In 1989, Mary Li and her husband, Li Cunxin AO, welcomed their daughter, Sophie. Newborn hearing screening wasn’t routine then, but after noticing Sophie’s lack of reaction to a popping balloon, they booked a hearing test. The diagnosis—profound deafness—shocked them both. Mary immediately thought of Helen Keller’s experience. Despite advancements, the shock remains significant for parents. Mary made an early decision: she would give up her dancing career to ensure Sophie had equal opportunities.
Author Mary Li and Inclusive Futures Author Talk host Dr. Maretta MannFinding a Way for Sophie
Mary described that at the time (1990s) there was no internet, and no role models in her life that would help parents to support their deaf children. Sign language was not really presented as a viable option. She fortunately met one wonderful speech therapist who also had a child with disability. “She was the one that looked at me in the room and said “you know, you can help her”… she was amazing.” But healthcare and support weren’t coordinated, and parents had to find their own way.
Challenging Social Situations
In social situations, Mary faced challenges related to her daughter Sophie’s hearing loss. At a Mother’s Group, comparing Sophie’s speech development with other children highlighted the differences. Sophie missed social conversations without Mary as her interpreter. Birthday celebrations were exhausting, but a thoughtful friend organised a small party for Sophie. As Sophie entered her teenage years, group situations became even more difficult—never being privy to secrets and missing out on conversations affected her confidence profoundly.
Mother as Teacher
Mary took every opportunity to teach Sophie to speak. “Even in the bath tub I put on her hearing aids because she was still… Instead of making individual lessons I just talked all day about everything that was around me.” She spoke about a revelation when Sophie was about four years old that she would need to teach Sophie how to think, because this is very difficult to do without the language. This is when she decided to investigate a cochlear implant.
Navigating School and University
Mary shared the difficulty in finding a good school for Sophie. She tried out a specialist school for deaf children, and mainstream schools (in both Australia and the USA). She wanted Sophie to have a good education but also for Sophie to experience social situations. None of the school experiences were perfect. Later Sophie went to university, and that presented challenges as well. Even if there were Auslan (Australian Sign Language) interpreters, sometimes they wouldn’t be available for particular classes.
Sophie and Dancing
Mary spoke about the benefits that Sophie has had from doing dancing. First, it was a new opportunity, and this extended Sophie’s opportunity to learn new words from being immersed in different situations. She said that when you have a hearing-impaired child you worry about background noise, so basketball is out. But in a ballet studio the children have to be quiet and listen to the teacher. So, in a way Sophie was having speech therapy without knowing it. Interestingly, she was also very expressive and musical. She ended up doing a year 12 dance, and she was one of the top 5% in the state. She was particularly good at tap dancing, and Mary said this is a great form of dance for Deaf children.
Cochlear Implants: A Dual Perspective
Mary acknowledges that cochlear implants have significantly transformed Sophie’s life, but they come with limitations. Sophie now communicates using Auslan and benefits from the implants, straddling both the hearing and deaf worlds. However, Sophie’s first implant failed due to a software glitch, leading to a second surgery after 26 years.
Sophie’s reality remains unchanged—she goes to bed deaf and wakes up the same way. Yet, the implant acts as a powerful tool, akin to putting on glasses.
Nowadays, in her mentoring role, Sophie emphasises confidence-building. Many individuals with implants or hearing loss struggle with confidence, but Sophie guides them toward reclaiming it. Whether in the workforce or daily life, she empowers others to overcome barriers and find their voice.
Where is Sophie Now?
Mary told us a bit about what Sophie has been doing since her book was published in 2020. Amongst many exciting developments, Sophie has invented a subscription-based global online signing dictionary called Sign How(External link), as well as a signing app.
Resources:
· To read the full story, purchase Mary’s Last Dance by Mary Li online(External link).
· Learn about Sophie’s Sign How(External link) dictionary.
Dr Maretta Mann and Mary LiThis condensed account was written by Dr Maretta Mann, Strategic Development Manager, and host of the Book Club at Inclusive Futures: Reimagining Disability.
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Inclusive Futures Author Talk Series: Matt Levy OAM PLY "Going the Distance: Identify and create your own lane to success"
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Disability Inclusion Author Talk Series: With guest speaker, Matt Levy OAM PLY Paralympian and author of ‘Going the Distance: Identify and create your own lane to success’. Hosted by Dr Maretta Mann.
Matt Levy OAM PLY with Dr. Maretta Mann Last Tuesday, 27 February, Griffith Inclusive Futures: Reimagining Disability hosted esteemed guest Matt Levy OAM PLY(External link), Australian Paralympian and author of “Going the Distance”.
In his talk, Matt shared his life journey, marked by early challenges due to being born prematurely with cerebral palsy, and emphasised the transformative role of swimming therapy in overcoming his physical limitations. Matt also discussed the impact of cerebral palsy on his daily life, highlighting the importance of recognising that disabilities affect individuals differently.
From top left to right: Prof. David Thiel; Cathy Easte, Tara Horner and Matt Levy OAM PLY, Captioner Roxane Lane; and Nathaniel Audley, Tara Horner, Maureen Sullivan and Mark Berridge. Matt has developed a framework based on his experiences. He stressed the significance of setting manageable goals, driven by passion and belief. He told us the story of where it all started for him, when he was left behind at the pool after the school swimming carnival. He found a way to navigate across Sydney via public transport to get home that took him over three hours and it taught him a crucial lesson in goal-setting.
Matt also detailed his remarkable achievements, participating in five Paralympic Games, emphasising that the journey and the learning experiences matter more than the accolades. Matt also reflected on a pivotal moment during the 2008 Paralympic Games when he realised the need for a change in attitude and commitment to continuous improvement.
He delved into the importance of having a dream, a desire, and creating tools for success. Matt shared the necessity of focusing on the purpose behind one's actions, particularly during challenging days, and encouraged attendees to make the most out of every moment, whether positive or negative.
Matt introduced his ‘action plan’, breaking down big goals into smaller, manageable steps, and underscored the importance of simplicity and a focused approach in achieving success, drawing parallels between his training sessions and broader life goals.
Matt also emphasied the role of a supportive team, including family, friends, colleagues, and coaches, in personal growth., and highlighted the significance of engaging with one's inner circle through meaningful conversations, collaborations, and shared experiences.
Wapping up a most impactful Author Talk, Matt concluded by stressing the value of lifting each other higher and turning negatives into positives through supportive relationships.I was so inspired by Matt, who has achieved so much success by following a process of setting goals and then working towards them, and also of approaching the setbacks or disappointments as an opportunity for reflection, learning and growth.
Matt also encouraged others not to compare themselves with others, but to follow one’s own path.
I think everyone in the room left feeling encouraged by Matt’s practical and inspiring approach to reaching your potential.
From top left to right: Matt Levy OAM; Julia Robertson together with Matt Levy and Mark Berridge; Attendees at the Author Talk held at Nathan Campus, Griffith University. -
Professor Yerbury's Legacy
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By Dr Maretta Mann
On 11th October Inclusive Futures: Reimagining Disability held a Book Club event in memory of the late Professor Justin Yerbury, an award-winning research scientist, disabled academic, and author of Fighting Fate.
Justin's wife, Dr Rachel Yerbury opened the event and spoke about discrimination in academia. Members of the Yerbury Group at University of Wollongong, Victoria Shephard, Thomas Walker, and Dr Isabella Lambert-Smith, followed with an update of the team's research.
Dr Rachel Yerbury: Disability and academia
"We are here today to remember the work of my husband Professor Justin Yerbury.
Among his many roles Justin was a husband, a father, a research scientist and a disabled academic. He took these aspects of his life very seriously and in each case he put all his efforts into being the best that he could be. And in doing so he set an example for other people in similar situations. ... Other research scientists were motivated by Justin's passion and energy, and by the way he shared, collaborated but never compared. As a disabled academic Justin fought with courage and dignity to find a cure to the disease that he, himself, lived with.
To say he was inspiring was an understatement. Justin showed the world what a completely paralysed person on life support could achieve. But he didn't only fight for himself and against the disease, he relentlessly fought against ableism and discrimination. Justin was well supported by the University of Wollongong who did everything they could to stand with him against ableism and inequity. But in the wider world he saw that this wasn't always so.
As a family we experienced discrimination in lots of ways and places. But what most upset him was the experiences of his colleagues and peers in academia. In 2020, Justin took on the National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) over the fairness of achievement of policies to opportunity. He finally made them see reason and they subsequently changed their policies and criteria in an attempt to level the playing field.
Together Justin and I co-authored a paper in Trends in Neurosciences called "Disabled in academia: to be or not to be, that is the question". The paper highlighted the challenges of academics living with disability and neurodiversity, and the reluctance of people to disclose their disabilities. In the article we called for a reframing and a normalising of disability in the context of inclusion and diversity. Justin was a true fighter in so many ways and I hope his advocacy for disability rights will form part of how he is remembered."
Rachel then read an excerpt from Fighting Fate, which was painstakingly written by Justin using eye gaze technology.
Victoria Shephard: What is Motor Neurone Disease?
Currently over 2,000 Australians are living with motor neurone disease (MND), otherwise known as amyotropic lateral sclerosis (ALS). It is a neurodegenerative disease that affects specialised nerve cells called motor neurones, which control movement, including the ability to walk, talk, swallow and breathe. In MND the neurones die off and eventually cause paralysis. This is caused by the accumulation of toxic protein aggregates inside the motor neurones.
For most people, the cause is unknown, but for about 10% of people it is genetically inherited. The first gene to be linked to MND was SOD1, which is related to about 20% of familial cases. Victoria described the normal process for making proteins in cells, and that when there is a mistake in the production, there is a system for removing the dysfunctional proteins. In MND, there is an imbalance of proteins and the cell machinery is overwhelmed, resulting in a build up of insoluble aggregates. This not only kills the affected neurone but also those nearby, thereby spreading the disease through the body.
Victoria explained how her lab studies the SOD1, and that they have discovered a novel mutant. She also told us how a microscope can be used to find these mutants in a diagnostic tool. Early diagnosis is really important because it allows for treatment before the disease progresses too far.
Tom Walker: Investigating the cause of MND
Tom described the work that the team has done on a protein called TDP-43, which is associated with the majority of MND cases. In the lab, they can add fluorescent tags to TDP-43 and then track it in the cells using microscopes with high powered lasers. He also told us about another important cell machinery protein called heat-shock protein that normally helps to keep cells healthy. The team at University of Wollongong have done some exciting experiments using TDP-43 and heat-shock protein. They have been able to visualise a change in behaviour of TDP-43 when heat-shock protein is added.
Dr Isabella Lambert-Smith: Therapeutic targets for MND
The University of Wollongong team have studied a combination of three small molecules as potential drugs to prevent misfolding in SOD1 protein - one of the proteins associated with familial MND. Their experiments showed very promising results. They have also investigated how to target the SOD1 in faulty motor neurones. This is a critical problem to solve because targeting one type of protein is like trying to target a star in the night sky. They have studied the use of an antibody detector and attached it to another protein that eliminates the faulty SOD1. A therapy based on this approach could rescue motor neurones before they deteriorate.
Isabella explained that diagnosis of MND is very difficult, because for most people there is no genetic link. Often most of the motor neurones have been lost to the disease by the time a person begins receiving treatment. An effective treatment, as Justin envisioned, would therefore not only rescue dying motor neurones, but also replace those that have been lost. The team has been working on a novel concept to generate a new motor neurone starting with a sensory neurone. This is feasible because there are many more sensory than motor neurones in the body. The researchers are investigating how to "turn off" the genes that make neurone sensory and at the same time "turn on" genes for conversion into a motor neurone.
Fighting Fate
To learn more about Professor Yerbury's life and research, I encourage you to read his book! You can purchase it here:
Buy Fighting Fate and support MND research
Acknowledgements
The Yerbury Group at University of Wollongong: Professor Justin Yerbury AM, Dr Luke McAlary, Dr Jeremy Lum, Dr Isabella Lambert-Smith, Natalie Farrawell, Christen Chisholm, Victoria Shephard, Tom Walker, Dr Tracey Berg, Dr Rachael Bartlett-Johnson, Mikayla Brown, Siobhan Suters, Vanessa Hollingsworth.
Supporters and collaborators: Fight MND, MND Research Australia, Molecular Horizons, NHMRC, Flinders University, Ooi Group, Ecroyd Group, Wilson Group, Dr Yee Lian Chew.
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Fighting Fate, by Professor Justin Yerbury
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I Just Finished Fighting Fate by Justin Yerbury
I just finished reading Fighting Fate by Justin Yerbury, and I was so moved and inspired. It is a story about Justin's fight with Motor Neuron Disease (MND), which also afflicted many of his family members. But it is also a story of his passion to find a cure, which led him to be an internationally leading scientist in the field of MND.
The book described the science in a way that I found engaging and accessible. Later in the book, as his MND becomes increasingly disabling, he explores the deep topics of being a researcher with disability, what makes life meaningful and worth living, and human dignity.
What is most incredible is that he wrote the book using eye tracking technology, at a point when most of his body was paralysed. It showed to me the value of technology for enabling people with disability to tell their important stories. As a society we are richer for this.
Sadly, Professor Yerbury passed away last month, shortly after his book was released. But his story will continue to inspire and motivate others for years to come.
If you are looking for a book that will move you, challenge you, and make you think, then I highly recommend Fighting Fate. It is a truly remarkable story.
Proceeds from book sales will be donated to Fight MND.
Questions for readers (please comment below):
Have you read Fighting Fate? What did it make you feel or think?
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Book Club: Sexual Health, Wellbeing and Disability
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INCLUSIVE FUTURES BOOK CLUB
A conversation with authors Dr. Marita Heck (author of Secret Forces) and conversation partners Lisa Cox(External link) and Chantelle Otten(External link).
Inclusive Futures: Reimagining Disability(External link), Griffith University(External link) hosted our latest #BookClub(External link) event on #SexualHealth(External link), #wellbeing(External link) and #disability(External link), with author Marita Heck and conversation partners Lisa Cox(External link) and Chantelle Otten(External link) online, on Wednesday, 23 August on Microsoft Teams.
Chantelle Otten and Lisa CoxIt is a human right to experience positive #SexualHealth(External link) and wellbeing, yet it is a topic that is often neglected and ignored. Please join us (via our online recording) for an open, honest discussion about challenges experienced by #PeopleWithDisability(External link) and how we can increase awareness, education and support.
Dr Marita Heck (PhD, Master of Midwifery, Bachelor of Nursing Science) is an Adjunct Research Fellow with The Hopkins Centre(External link), Menzies Health Institute Queensland, Griffith University(External link) on the Gold Coast in Queensland. Dr Heck is further a member of the Griffith University’s Inclusive Futures task force. In this space, Dr Heck is leading a consumer-led multidisciplinary research project in collaboration with five Australian universities promoting holistic sexual health support for people living with a spinal cord injury.
In addition, Dr Heck conducts research into supporting women living with an SCI in pre-pregnancy, antenatal, birth and postnatal support. Dr Heck is further a very experienced #clinician(External link) working with people living with a disability in the sexuality and fertility, and antenatal, birth and postnatal period in the Australian community. Besides her work in the research and the clinical setting, Dr Heck is a vivid romance novel author and published her first suspense romance novel Secret Forces in 2020.
Lisa Cox is an Internationally awarded thought leader, TEDx(External link) speaker, #author(External link)and consultant who is working with business, government, Griffith University and others to help create solutions and change social attitudes towards disability. Her work has been recognised around the globe and featured in media like FOX, NBC News(External link), Huffington Post(External link), Smart Company, Vogue(External link) and AdNews Australia(External link).
Chantelle Otten is a Melbourne based Psycho-Sexologist who is passionate about empowering people to feel great about their sexual health, self-esteem, communication and education. With a background in scientific research, sexual medicine, and counselling, she believes that sexuality and self-esteem are an integral part of life, which everyone is entitled to. Good sexual health should always be enjoyable, pain free and without prejudice.
For those who missed the event, you can access the recording here https://youtu.be/11DP3nz_Tn4(External link) - A full and accessible transcript can be provided upon request.For more information about the author Dr. Marita Heck:
https://www.amazon.com.au/Secret-Forces-Marita-Heck-ebook/dp/B08KTSLM2G(External link)https://www.sexpositivecommunity.com/(External link)
For more information about Lisa Cox:
https://lisacox.co/(External link)
https://www.instagram.com/lisacox.co/(External link)
For more information about Chantelle Otten:
https://chantelleotten.com/(External link)https://www.instagram.com/chantelle_otten_sexologist/(External link)
If you would like to stay up to date with upcoming events and join the Inclusive Futures book club community, you can join up here: https://inclusivefutures.griffith.edu.au/inclusive-futures-book-club?tool=survey_tool#tool_tab
If you have any questions or would like a copy of the transcript, please do not hesitate to contact the team at inclusivefutures@griffith.edu.au.
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Inclusive Work and Play: with Dinesh Palipana and Nick Marshall
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A conversation with authors D
r Dinesh Palipana OAM (author of Stronger) and Nick Marshall OAM (author of Included), and Dr Maretta Mann.In March, Inclusive Futures: Reimagining Disability hosted our inaugural Book Club event. The book club aims to promote awareness and to foster an inclusive culture, through the sharing of stories and lived experience of disability.
Hosted by Dr Maretta Mann, Inclusive Futures Strategic Development Manager, together with special guests Dr Dinesh Palipana OAM and Nick Marshall OAM, this interactive event gave attendees the opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of disability from different perspectives.
Dinesh Palipana OAM is an Australian doctor, lawyer, scientist and disability advocate. He is the first quadriplegic medical intern in Queensland, Australia. He is the second person with quadriplegia to graduate as a doctor in Australia and the first with spinal cord injury and is Chair of the Inclusive Futures: Reimagining Disability Engagement Council.
Dinesh talked about the discrimination he faced when becoming a doctor, and how this was overcome, through the support of his allies, as well as hard work and importantly, working to his strengths. He also talked about working to turn the tide and helping others, the way others helped him when he was starting out as a doctor with a disability.
“It is just one person at a time. If you can do that for one person, that's enough. So, I think that's how we made a change in these systems. It is one at a time. And I remember the investment that people made in me, so I try to pay that forward every day.”
Nick Marshall OAM is an Assistant Professor at Griffith University and owner of Surf Life Physio, a multidisciplinary private practice on the Gold Coast. He is the Senior Physiotherapist for the Queensland Academy of Sport in Swimming, as well as the Australian Surf Lifesaving Team, and on-field Physio for the NRL referees at Broncos and Titans games, State of Origin and Test Matches. Nick is a 2022 Churchill Fellow and an advocate for children with a disability and is the founder of the Albatross Nippers Inc, an inclusive surf lifesaving program.
Nick, who has dyslexia, shared how the Albatross Nippers idea come about… "One of the biggest things about nippers is the age‑specific criteria. Under-6 nippers, if they go past their waist, it is one‑on‑one water safety. So, my big argument was, if you're 25 and want to do nippers, so long as you can do what an under‑6 can do, you can do nippers. Surely, because an under‑6 will do that with extra assistance. It was the most foreign thing known to me to suggest that. There is an age manager with knowledge that everyone in their group can swim this far so they can take them to do an activity. That's what it is based on. It makes perfect sense but why not have a child stick with their similar age peer but have one‑on‑one water safety, and then they can join in with their friends? And so, you know, I kind of joked to people that you can be in between the flags where there's one lifesaver and 40 people but you can't do nippers when there's water safety around you and the safest place to swim. That was the start of it. I think it just was in the too hard basket for most people. "Why are you bothering with this? It is too hard. We don't need to do this." But it seemed right."
